Puzzling Voyager; Stumped

Jan. 1, 2020
When a minivan drops back to idle, it starts running rough and goes rich on the O2 sensor
Puzzling VoyagerDear Troubleshooter:
The vehicle is a 1995 Plymouth Voyager, with a 2.5L engine three-speed automatic transmission, VIN 2P4GH25K2SR311768. The vehicle is hard to start and it will not idle without going to a rich condition. At high rpms, all readings on the sensors are good.
But when the minivan drops back to idle, it starts running rough and goes rich on the O2 sensor. Also, injector pulse width is still high, up to about 4.25 ms.I have replaced the map sensor, computer, TPS and the throttle body. The fuel pressure checks to spec and does the same thing on the auxiliary fuel source. The ignition coil and the pick-up in the distributor have been changed.  I’m at my wit’s end.The engine is a new rebuild with approximately 2,000 miles. It ran like a top when the engine was installed.If you have any ideas or can help in any way, it would be appreciated.Charlie Lee, PresidentLee’s Repair Shop, Dewey, OKDear Mr. Lee:
Let’s see what we can do with the limited information that we have. The complaint is hard starting, rough idle and a rich idle condition. The O2 sensor displays rich, and the injector pulse width is abnormally high for idle speeds. You state that all sensor readings are good when above idle, and fuel pressure is within specifications.
Now my questions are, what are those same sensor readings at idle? Have you installed a vacuum gauge and taken a compression test to rule out an engine mechanical problem? Are there any vacuum leaks?Remember that a speed density system determines engine load by changes in manifold pressure. If there is an engine mechanical malfunction, vacuum leak or a malfunctioning EGR valve that affects MAP sensor pressures, the engine management system will be fooled into believing the engine is under heavy load and will increase injector pulse width accordingly. A faulty coolant temperature sensor could also cause a rich mixture and hard starting hot, but would happen at all engine speeds, not just idle. This vehicle is not originally equipped with an EGR valve; however, if the engine was swapped from another Chrysler vehicle that has an EGR valve, I would suggest the EGR be checked for sticking open at idle. Stumped
Dear Troubleshooter:
I’m working on a Toyota Celica GT, production date 10/90 with a 16 valve 2200 engine and automatic transmission (VIN JT2ST87N6M0070522). The problem happens when the car is warm. After being on the highway, the engine stumbles and stalls while sitting at a stop, but not all the time. The owner has taken it to the dealer several times, and they say there’s no problem. But there is because it happened to me, so I know what she is complaining about.The dealer has done tune-ups, fuel injector cleaning and has replaced the EGR valve. And it is still doing the same thing. I have looked at it, and can’t find a problem or any codes.I think I read an article by you several months ago with a similar problem. If you could help that would be great.Thank you,David Binder, Owner/ManagerSK Muffler, Warren, MIDear Mr. Binder:
Let’s see what we can do. Because the problem exists only during idle, we must concentrate on anything that can have a major affect on idle without affecting operation at higher speeds. This would include such areas as vacuum leaks, open EGR, a malfunctioning or ‘sludged-up’ idle air control system, and engine mechanical failures, such as a sticking valve.
Check for vacuum leaks. Don’t forget the PCV. Be sure it is in good condition and is the correct valve for the vehicle. Be sure the engine is in good mechanical condition. Check that the IAC circuit is not partially plugged and is operating properly. Check that the EGR vacuum modulator or vacuum-switching valve is not holding the EGR valve open at idle. Exhaust backpressure increases proportionally with engine load; the EGR vacuum modulator uses this principle to precisely control the strength of the vacuum signal to the EGR valve. If the modulator malfunctions, vacuum can be supplied to the EGR at idle, which will result in a rough idle and stalling. There is a filter at the top of the vacuum modulator that, if plugged, could create the same condition. Even though the EGR valve itself has been replaced, be sure there are no carbon deposits holding it open.It is also possible that the torque converter clutch is staying engaged or the throttle position closed switch is defective.
About the Author

Roy Ripple

Roy Ripple passed away in September 2021 at the age of 84. He was an automotive technician his entire life. He owned his own shop for years before his first and only venture into automotive journalism, with Motor Age magazine. In his youth, he was an avid drag racer and a good friend of Don Garlits. He raised four children, rode motorcycles, hunted deer, and loved to shoot trap. His son, Roy Dennis Ripple, now writes for Motor Age. You can see his work here. 

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